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And I promise you'll get it. Sorry in advance if you're offended, hurt or pissed off with the result. If you want an ass kissing there are plenty of other people on this site that will line up to do so. Maybe you should ask your Mom. Unless your Mom is a bitch and never tells you what an awesome artist you are, no matter how hard to try to please her....MOM WHY DON'T YOU LOVE MEEEEE....? *ahem* back to what I was saying. I'm not your Mom. I won't blow sunshine up your ass. You deserve better. I'll try to be nice but like I said, that's not my job. If your stuff is great, I'll tell you. If it needs work, I'll tell you what I think you can do to be better. If you're a grown ass man, and your stuff looks like a 12 year old drew it, well.....

The reason I'm writing this is because someone who uses computer puppet programs like poser to do 95% of their "art" asked me if I thought DC or Marvel would ever hire a guy like him. I told him "I hope not". I went on from there and you can read it in my front page comments. Was I a bit harsh? Sure. But that whole letting the computer do everything for you isn't what I can art. It actually pisses me off. Computers are tools, not artists. It's why Pixar blows the doors off the guys who just cranked out "Mars needs Moms". And I guess I'm not alone in my opinion, because that piece of crap movie is looking like it'll be one of the biggest flops in recent times. Why? Because it lacks soul. If I want to see realistically rendered things I'll look at a photograph. If I want to see great comic book art, I prefer to see a human using his/her hand. Even if it's only on a Wacom.

Just my opinion. Take it or leave it.

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:iconzaiachi:
Zaiachi Featured By Owner Apr 26, 2011  Hobbyist General Artist
Honest people. It's a dying breed if not rare. Kudos on the honest opinion. I mean I'm not so great an artist, but I do try to draw as much as I can without the help of programs that'll do all the work. Takes out the thrill in making the art. Just me and my trusty Wacom. Because I cant seem to buy a sketchpad these days.
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:iconangrypermitclerk:
AngryPermitClerk Featured By Owner Apr 10, 2011  Professional Digital Artist
Nice to know you haven't changed. :)
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:iconattache:
Attache Featured By Owner Mar 31, 2011
I'm guessing that the main problem is a lot of artists confuse you for their mother. I know that the goatee and the pipe threw me! :confused:
Reply
:icongrobles63:
grobles63 Featured By Owner Mar 21, 2011
First let me say I agree whole heartedly with Mr. Johnson, If you use the computer to create 95% of the art it does show. Secondly, there have been a lot of things, artwork, artist and illustrators that were once very popular but did not have staying power over the years and have been forgotten. There have also been artist who were under appreciated either in their own time or their work got lost because of some new fashion in art and then reemerged years latter, Leyendecker is a good example. Heck, Shakespeare was considered great in his day but there were other people in his own time who were slated for immortality. Isikol, you can always find someone that likes what you do but you ask someones opinion only if you want to grow. I have to admit though, that I've had very patient and generous instructors, not the kind that would change your diaper- they did not lack for honesty, but they understood where you were at, (by the way the problem with Poser is that no one can really tell what your skill level is), I also had the hard nosed beat you down types, where you just had to develope a thick skin and take away what you can,I can tolerate that but I tended to gravitate to the more patient ones. I would, however, trade off those hurt feelings for the chance to learn from someone whose work I have a deep respect for, and Dave Johnson fits that bill.
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:iconspidermanfan2099:
spidermanfan2099 Featured By Owner Mar 20, 2011
... Never asking you for criticism! You scare me worse than my editors haha! Great thread to read through Dave, i get where you're going with the 'soulless' debate. I think thats something that will get progressively worse over time (unless the artists of those mediums really push away from the cgi look, and start to work into the images after!) I've used Poser to some degree, but only really for reference work... never for a final image. For its use of creating a static mind's eye view for artist, its a great tool. Who knows where it will go though!!
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:iconboobdan:
BoobDan Featured By Owner Mar 19, 2011
Amen reverend!
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:iconrnabrandent:
RNABrandEnt Featured By Owner Mar 19, 2011  Professional General Artist
Heh. I'd like to know who this person is that asked about Marvel and DC hiring a guy that uses Poser... Funny, the program is called "Poser".

Anyways, I know someone who is doing that to do comic strips and animations. It's sad, really. What happened to artistic ability, maybe it's just a lack of talent and skill, or it is just a matter of laziness.

Either way, it sucks.
Reply
:icongoldenavatar:
goldenavatar Featured By Owner Mar 19, 2011
You're right, it's not your job to deliver back rubs, hot cocoa, and words of encouragement when faced with less than professional work. I hope that you figure out a way to charge for the time you spend offering critiques or feedback on someones work. If I had your skill and experience, I'd have just ignored the inquiry, or simply directed the guy to the various past journals you've written on the subject of the comic book industry. That, or recommended that they read the journals/blogs of your peers. No one needs that sort of headache.
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:iconerdna1:
erdna1 Featured By Owner Mar 19, 2011  Professional Traditional Artist
As someone trying to get published, throughout original work and mainstream comics, I welcome every critique and comment I can get by professionals, so if you have a couple of minutes, I'd love to hear your words. You can either check my gallery [link] or my blog if you prefer (it has a bit more stuff and it's easier to scroll I think) - [link]
Thank you very much for your time.
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:iconzeruch:
zeruch Featured By Owner Mar 18, 2011  Professional General Artist
Denis Leary said it pretty well, "Life is tough, wear a helmet." If I listened to half the criticism I get, I'd be neurotic, and if I didn't listen to the other half, I'd be worse off.

All in all, while one can quibble about the presentation, the root idea of being straight with people I think is a good one.
Reply
:iconsterlingvisions:
sterlingvisions Featured By Owner Mar 18, 2011  Professional Digital Artist
This has been a very interesting thread. As a artist I do appreciate feedback because I do want to get better. Most of the time I feel like I'm in isolation continuing to push forward so, any feedback is welcome because it helps me to get better.
Reply
:icondevilpig:
Devilpig Featured By Owner Mar 18, 2011
Looked at your stuff. I like your creativity and design sense. The only thing I see that I could talk about is you consistency in your drawing skills. But over time that will change for the better. Keep up the good work.
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:iconsterlingvisions:
sterlingvisions Featured By Owner Mar 18, 2011  Professional Digital Artist
Thanks! I appreciate you taking the time to check out my work and your feedback.
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:iconheysawbones:
heysawbones Featured By Owner Mar 18, 2011  Professional General Artist
Alright, man, sure. Art school, medical school. Art school, medical school. Putting all considerations other than 'potential to develop adequate skill and breadth to make it in comics' aside. Thanks in advance!
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:icondevilpig:
Devilpig Featured By Owner Mar 18, 2011
Well, if you're ask me if medical school would be a better choice than art school, I'd say medical school. Get a job that you like, make a great income, and do art on the side because you love to do it. And the reason I say this choice is not because you're without skills, it because you have to ask. I've always known from an early age that I'd be an artist. I gambled everything on it from early on. My grades sucked, why? It's not because I'm stupid, it's because instead of classwork I was alway daydreaming while drawing. I knew I'd never need algebra or calculus, so I took the barely passing grade.

So if you have the smarts to become a doctor, then use them. The artwork is full of corpses of unfulfilled dreamers who hoped they had what it takes, only to end up working at the quickie mart 5 miles from their parents basement.
Do you possess the talent to become a comic artist? That's really up to you. Anything can happen. It really all comes down to how bad you want it. No matter WHAT anybody says. Including an asshole like myself. ;)
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:iconheysawbones:
heysawbones Featured By Owner Mar 18, 2011  Professional General Artist
Would you believe that many doctors say almost exactly the same thing, when asked about medical school? Aside from the 'money' thing.

That's a great response! What I decide is a bit more complicated than whether I had to ask or not (I'm one of those people who has been drawing with all the seriousness in the world since they could hold a pencil), but really. I appreciate the thoughtful advice. Thanks.
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:icondevilpig:
Devilpig Featured By Owner Mar 18, 2011
Cool. Just so you know, the art field can be extremely hard to make a living at. And being a comic book artist in some ways is even harder. Unless you're trying to be a standard Marvel or DC artist, it's feast or famine. For every Brian O'Malley there's about a thousand or more failed artists that can't pay their bills.

Either way, good luck.
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:iconheysawbones:
heysawbones Featured By Owner Mar 18, 2011  Professional General Artist
Trust me, I'm aware, ha ha. Thanks, man, I'll need it, no matter what I choose. Keep up the stylish work.
Reply
:icontiznaught:
Tiznaught Featured By Owner Mar 17, 2011
Woah, this is kinda funny!
I was linked to this guy's stuff a while ago and left a small critique on one of his DDs, similar to some of the big pointers you gave him. His response was not nearly so polite and my comment (along with many others) were blocked as spam. You're welcome buddy.
Stuff made with Poser doesn't HAVE to be inherently bad, it's just better used when someone understands how human anatomy works and what goes into a good painting. Some people think they're being rebellious by using programs like it to create art, and get so defensive about crits that they don't realize the things that bother so many other pros isn't from elitism, it's their own attitude and a bad approach to using a tool.
And of course critiquing it inevitably turns into a traditional vs. digital argument, that poor dead horse is glue already.
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:iconisikol:
isikol Featured By Owner Mar 18, 2011  Professional Digital Artist
you left a critique????

this guy the only thing he said was that my DD wasn't deserved...

he never said why or what was wrong with my picture....

and you know what....?

i really made a big mistake asking Dave about his opinion...and the reason is that i couldn't expect everyone to like what im doing...

i was unlucky enough to ask the BIGGER HATER OF POSER in the whole DA!!!!

the specific picture you didn't like has 41.716 views...1306 people like it and 302 commented possitive about my picture...

and you were the only negative one!!!! :D

i guess you are just a minority...
Reply
:iconshadymark:
ShadyMark Featured By Owner Mar 19, 2011
No, it's just that the people that like well-crafted images never get past the thumbnails. You need to spend some time in a life drawing class. It'll do you a world of good.

And you were very lucky to get Dave's opinion. This is an opportunity for you to grow as an artist. Don't bury your head in the sand and make this a ridiculous stand about people hating Poser. You need to step outside your comfort zone and do the challenging stuff that you think Poser is doing for you.
Reply
:icontiznaught:
Tiznaught Featured By Owner Mar 18, 2011
Who are you talking about? I never said anything about your DD being undeserved, don't put words in my mouth.
But hey, I'll leave another crit if you'd like.
Pros and editors give harsh criticism to everyone who asks them, and they all focus on the same things no matter what tools the art was made with, so drop the defensive attitude over Poser. If you aren't willing to roll up your sleeves and get in the trenches with the rest of us hopefuls, you probably won't make it as a pro.

And if you took Dave's opinion this badly, I'd hate to see what a seasoned editor from a big house has to say.
Reply
:iconmidnightmagnificent:
MidNightMagnificent Featured By Owner Mar 17, 2011  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Hi, I'm a fan of isikol's art, and through him, I heard about you. I just wanted to disagree with you on one point.

Regarding comment about a computer/programs being soulless, isn't a pen just a soulless tool too? It's about the artist's ability to breathe life into the final artwork, not about the methods. Technology has advanced greatly, and art must move along with it. That would be the real stagnancy, and not just the methods by which art is created.

And I do agree that I wouldn't want to read a whole comic book rendered in isikol's style, but that's not to say that there's absolutely no place in the comics industry for it. These comics covers for Marvel's Rogue, for example. [link]

Perhaps he won't be working on what he thought he wanted to, initially, but there's still a way to get in there and learn on the job.
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:icondevilpig:
Devilpig Featured By Owner Mar 17, 2011
One. A pen doesn't do 95% of the work for you. Poser programs do. Second. Those cover you referenced were not done with said program. So I have no ideas as to why you mentioned them. Once again, like I said before, I'm not against technology. But when someone uses said technology without adding much, then the computer program is the artist, not the human. And third, I just think it looks like shit most of the time. But that's just my opinion once again.
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:iconsaturnword:
saturnword Featured By Owner Mar 17, 2011  Hobbyist General Artist
I'm sorry but the covers you linked all look like they were done using computer coloring methods or traditional media. I think the point you may be missing is that programs like Poser and etc eliminate the need for the artist to have any basic skills in art. Art is about the human element. It's about expressing every day things differently and giving life to impossible dreams/nightmares.
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:iconmidnightmagnificent:
MidNightMagnificent Featured By Owner Mar 17, 2011  Hobbyist Digital Artist
Perhaps.

Yet, I doubt you could just write a computer program to turn all those basic models that come with a computer program into what is seen in isikol's gallery.

The human element is still needed, even if pen/pencil never touches paper directly. And I still think of it as art.

Just sayin'.
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:iconmendicant:
Mendicant Featured By Owner Apr 12, 2011  Professional Artist
Ya'know... reading this takes me back to the days when lens flares, gradients & ripple-type distortions were all the rage. :D
Reply
:iconshadymark:
ShadyMark Featured By Owner Mar 19, 2011
In this case Poser is being used as a crutch and it's stunting the artist's development. Use whatever program you want, but you gotta learn to stand on your own feet first.
Reply
:iconsaturnword:
saturnword Featured By Owner Mar 17, 2011  Hobbyist General Artist
I do not see the human element in his work at all really. If I come across some impersonal and non-introspective work, I usually start to look at it from a technical view-point.

"The human element is still needed, even if pen/pencil never touches paper directly. And I still think of it as art." I never said anything to the contrary.
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:iconhel999:
hel999 Featured By Owner Mar 17, 2011
I think honest or even brutally honest feedback is the nicest and the rarest, because it's the only thing that really helps to improve.
I'm not much of a comic artist and I'm currently trying out a lot of different things to practice. I can't say I have found my style yet, but I'd be glad if you could look at my work and tell me what I should work on in your opinion. It woud be a massive help to find out the direction I want to take with my art.
Reply
:iconhcollazo2000:
hcollazo2000 Featured By Owner Mar 17, 2011
Finally! A professional artist that feel like I do (I'm not a pro, just a humble student). Computers are fine and all, but the soul of the drawing lies in the hand-wrist-shoulder that holds that pencil and puts it to paper. That, in my opinion is what injects life into art. :dance:
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:iconmarvelleftw:
marvelleftw Featured By Owner Mar 17, 2011  Professional General Artist
Awesomesause man, you can hit me with the ugly truth anytime you're ready! :D
I don't draw from refferences, except for costume details :)
Can't wait! :ahoy:
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:icondevilpig:
Devilpig Featured By Owner Mar 17, 2011
First, tell me what kind of work do you see yourself getting in the future?
Reply
:iconmarvelleftw:
marvelleftw Featured By Owner Mar 17, 2011  Professional General Artist
Well, I sort of have multiple career options atm.. But if I should decide to make my money from illustration, it would most likely be a career in character design / design for magazines / album covers etc...
I'm into putting time in a piece, to get some quality and detail going on.
Also, you should know I've been learning to draw and illustrate for this past year, and am self educated - got me some pdfs on anatomy, perspective, drapery, color, etc.. Before that, I hadn't drawn in years, got serious about it last january, when I bought the wacom.
I'm actually an e-business bachelor and work as a graphic designer atm.
Think this is enough insight for now. Cheers
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:iconwildpegasus13:
wildpegasus13 Featured By Owner Mar 16, 2011
You do have a way with words, Rev! I laughed out loud at the "I hope not!" part! I looked through isikol's gallery and it is all very nicely done 3D art, but I agree that unless its for promotional art for video games, this kind of work doesn't belong in comic books. Sure, you can have a 3D rendered comic book, but I feel that's only if you created all the models from scratch and not just put a Supergirl costume and blonde hair on a Poser model. I envy those that can compose 3D pieces, I tried using DAZ but my computer at the time couldn't handle it and I was a bit intimidated by it. But I feel that comics for the most part need to stay a medium where people draw from their imaginations from scratch on paper or on a Wacom.
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:iconisikol:
isikol Featured By Owner Mar 17, 2011  Professional Digital Artist
hi there wildpegasus...thank you for the polite way you used to say your opinion...

i have a question thought....

don't you think i used some imagination and skills to make this...

[link]

into this?

[link]

is it pure luck that i got a DD for this picture or do you think that some people truly liked what i did?

im just wondering why everyone thinks that we just pose and render...?

i spent 30 minutes for the RENDER itself and 4 Hours with the WACOM...
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:iconwildpegasus13:
wildpegasus13 Featured By Owner Mar 17, 2011
I think it takes skill with the program and with rendering the lighting and costume. But as far as the pose, one could argue that all it took was trying several different poses until you found the one you liked. Or you had a pose in mind and using your skill with the program you were able to achieve what you had in mind. What I'm saying, and what I think Dave is saying, is that for you the hardest part of hand drawn art is already done for you. The figure is already made, where as I would have to see it in my mind and create it from nothing. Start to finish.
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:iconisikol:
isikol Featured By Owner Mar 17, 2011  Professional Digital Artist
well...all i do is use poser for the base figure...i mean it helps having the body anatomically right and the lighting right...

but its ok...i rest my case...i don't want to persuade you that what i do is good art...

all i asked was if i have a chance in the market and the answer i got was "i hope not" :wow:

and the worst is that some people applaud that answer...
Reply
:iconjoedoubleclick:
JoeDoubleclick Featured By Owner Mar 17, 2011
Ah. I saw other people talking about Poser, and I hoped that wasn't really your method and you were at least sculpting your models. So yes, your scene needed some skills, but not much imagination.

Learn to sculpt. I used to do 3d modelling for games characters many years ago, and it's a lot of fun. Doing that enabled me to transfer that skill to sculpting real things later in life (see the pumpkins in my gallery if you're interested).

The problem with your Supergirl is that nobody would cast her as Supergirl. He doesn't have the right kind of face or musculature, and she's lacking all of the important charm that a 2d or 3d artist would add to display her personality. She doesn't even look like a blonde - she has a slightly East Asian look about her with a very heavy tan, which makes her hair look as though it is bleached.

Think of the smile, for example. Your model has a fake-looking smile, and there are psychological reasons for this. We don't trust a smiling face if the eyes don't match the mouth. You have to sculpt to get that right.
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:iconisikol:
isikol Featured By Owner Mar 17, 2011  Professional Digital Artist
yeah...thanks for sharing this...you have some strong points that matters me...
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:iconjces:
jces Featured By Owner Mar 21, 2011
and thats why he said 95% computer, cause you didnt work at anatomy or anything that.
and when he said it looks perfect yet its not, that was his quick way to say , yea perfect body
but its not supermans body , yea nice supergirl , but its not her, your not feeling it. its smooth yet hard.the hair looks like its there but its not hers. you just gotta listen, but you got offended 2 quick.and it didnt help you to actually receive the message that would of probably help you get better and probably achieve your goals quicker and prove him wrong. thats a more positive way to go about it.

once again , all love , one dude talking to another dude.
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:iconjces:
jces Featured By Owner Mar 21, 2011
I tink what Joedoubleclick said is what our man was trying to say , but he used other words, and strong real words, that your not used 2.But you did ask a question and got a answer, that i dont think you liked, which started all of this. but thats what Dpig meant im sure.because reading all this was like many people trying to tell you , get real or be real with yourself aka be honest. your trying to get people to give you good and positive answers like ( yea! u got skills, woot that was nice) . but you did ask a pro what he thought right ? for you to get into Marvel or DC ? = hell no not like this. You did not ask him , hey do you think its possible to make a comic based of my own basic skills on poser?.

im not any better at my pencil arts skills but i wont pretend, i know it will take a lot more soul searching to get to a comic level and im not interested in comics more like character designs. But you did ask him, and i took a look at your work and i wanted to say that. his right theres not much soul,you did put a lot of time and effort and should be regonize or appreciated for it, but thats your friends or moms jobs or yesmans , his not a yesman, his a pro and also it shows his wise , you asked him a serious question and he respected you enough to reply, I would have appreciated what he had to say because if you truly listened, he said a lot that would help you.

example : your batmans anatomy is the same for every other male in your galleries , same round big chest that isnt so eyecandy.supermans mass is a lil bigger then most people
, but you didnt care it seems, you just put a buff ripped body for batman , superman other superman, and whatever thats superman, why ? because he has a six pack ? hair is short and black ? and his young like 23 ... do you care that your creating clark kent who is superman ( mass is usualy bigger then most normal male, jaw is bigger wider then the norm, longer face, strong sharp looking eyes ) your batman...it looks like your superman but with a batman outfit on. if you want to make it to marvel, you need to consider those minor things and bring it!!!!. i know i have 2. and im here working my ass off and would really love any real talks, yesmans gets your head big and they make you think you got it , but its not the case , i learnt the hard way :) , but seriously learn to handle comments which you ask the question 2 a lil more, and show a lil more appreciation( i didnt say you didnt show appreciation:)) , this dude took his time to even respond to you, and this is what he got in return :( .( it all went a lil 2 far , when it was clear what he was saying, but its just not what you wanted to hear.)

p.s pardon my typing third language, and im only being very forward but its not disrespectful. and if it did offend you sorry , but you gotta hear the truth bro :)
i had 2 , it helps if you listen


I like to say , thanks Devilpig for even taking your time to reply to everybody seriously, i wonder how you do it( you must be crazy lol ), i cant even keep up with my life lol. anyhow thanks and one day i'll ask you about my gallery but not today bro, ive not drawn seriously in a while.and i get enough real talks from artist in my RL.

peace everybody :) and isikol , i hope you take the positives in all of this and work at your art more and kick ass in the future :) peace homie and i hope you know its all love baby lol
Reply
:iconisikol:
isikol Featured By Owner Mar 21, 2011  Professional Digital Artist
Hi there Jces...you see there are different ways of say things..and i prefer your way that the DevilPig's way...

My answer to his critique was the following: (did anyone bothered to read it?:()

well im a little bit offended, but at least you were honest...
Just to tell things with their name people actually recognize my style...
if you have the time please check the works of :iconarchangelgabriel: and :icondouglasshuler:
they work the same way i do and their style is recognizable...
Do you remember what traditional photographs used to say about digital photographers...
its ok...we do not agree in certain things.. i respect that...
thank you for your time...:)

i THANKED THE GUY....i was a little bit offended but nothing like some guys said about disrespect and stuff..!!!!

anyway..big talk over a guys opinion...there are thousands of artists out there...its not like i got a bad critique by Alex Ross...

this guy said some things that he was wrong..he accused Poser - 3d and every tool he doesn't use..this is ridiculous..

From one hand the tool doesn't make the artist from the other hand YES ID DOES when it suits us...

anyway jces, thanks for the big reply!!!:)
Reply
:iconjoedoubleclick:
JoeDoubleclick Featured By Owner Mar 17, 2011
^ lol at the Freudian "he"
Reply
:iconinkthinker:
Inkthinker Featured By Owner Mar 16, 2011  Professional Digital Artist
Part of the problem with relying on models and such is thinking that they're infallible... when they go wrong, you don't know enough to change it up. There's several examples of this problem in that artist's gallery.

Not to mention that all the fancy models and paint effect texturing in the 'verse won't make up for a lack of good composition skills. Even if you get that fancy finish look, there's still tangents and poorly arranged elements that show the artist lacks a full understanding of their craft.

I love digital drawing. But as you say, it's a tool. I like to draw in a digital environment because it lets me do things that aren't even possible with physical media, but in the end it's still me that's got to do them. Technique beats tools every time.
Reply
:icongreymoonx:
greymoonx Featured By Owner Mar 16, 2011   General Artist
Blowing sunshine up people's asses would just end up in scorched butts.

Reply
:iconpop-monkey:
pop-monkey Featured By Owner Mar 16, 2011  Professional Traditional Artist
This is why Brandon Peterson has fallen from grace in my eyes. Started out as a clone, developed his own unique style and got really good, then became a slave to Poser and now his art looks very stiff and soulless.
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:iconhanemi-depp:
Hanemi-Depp Featured By Owner Mar 16, 2011
Ohhh...!! I would love to get advice from you..!! Such a great oportunity! and I'm actually looking forward to improve my drawing..! I hope to get your opinion and advice! Thank you beforehand =)
Reply
:icondevilpig:
Devilpig Featured By Owner Mar 17, 2011
First off, what kind of work as an artist are you try to get?
Reply
:iconhanemi-depp:
Hanemi-Depp Featured By Owner Mar 18, 2011
Well, I'm trying to develop my drawing on anathomy, specially men's... :/ Also my coloring, but I just use color pencils so far :/ I don't know to use photoshop yet xD
At least not really, just the really really basic :/
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